Jump to content

Change
Photo

What could go wrong with Titan?


  • Please log in to reply
14 replies to this topic

#1
Rambo

Rambo
  • Early Adopter
  • 26 posts
  • Location - Hungary
12
Friendly

Hi everyone, 

 

I just recently signed up for the forums, though I have been following Titan for a long time.

 

So I've been wondering, what could go wrong with Titan? Maybe it's a silly question about a game, that we know nothing about, except for the fact that it is under developement, but still...

First of all, I'd like to state that I was playing WoW beginning from Beta all the way to mid-WotLK. Ironically, I left the game around the time when Jeff Kaplan did. Of course I checked back on expansions now and then, but nothing was the same after the second one. After all the experience I had in WoW, I can safely say that the game lived it's golden age under the leadership of J. Kaplan and I am relieved that the project is in his hands now. Not so much about the transfer of Jay Wilsons transfer to the project (for those of you, who don't know, the guy, who mage Diablo 3 the mediocre crap it is right now). 

So, the question remains, what could go wrong?

A lot of things, in fact. The MMO industry has evolved so much in the past decade and the greatest example is WoW itself. Back then, it was revolutionary, it didn't punish you for failing (aside from the repair bill). It came with a game world that was instantly recognisable, but still unknown. Questing was easy to get in, but damn hard to get out of. It was awesome and addictive like cocaine. Also, while the game didn't punish you for failing, it did reward you for grouping. Even solo quests were so hard sometimes, that it was more sensible to group up and do it in pairs. It felt like a social activity. 

After the first expansion (and most notably with the departure of Kaplan) came an era of casual gaming. Loot was easier to come by and you could level all the way to the cap without interacting with anyone. Hell, you can even run raids nowadays without social interaction. While the game has gotten so much better as a game, it has become so much worse as an MMO. People argue that you had to know people from the server if you were to ever raid. And that is the point. If you are not interested in a multiplayer experience, why bother playing a Massively Multiplayer Online Game. 

As you can imagine, I'm not happy with the direction WoW is going right now, and I would be very saddened if Titan would follow the same route. However the fact that Kaplan is leading them gives me some degree of insurance.

 

Also, I'm very afraid that Titan will be consumed by the "Guy Ritchie - Snatch" syndrome. Let me explain.

When snatch came out, it became a cult movie. It became a trademark of Guy Ritchie and everything that came after was compared to Snatch. No matter what he did, it was always compared to that one big movie and he could never escape it. That doesn't mean that he didn't do good movies after that, it's just that, compared to Snatch, they felt... not that good.

So, my other concern is, whether if WoW has made such a decisive impact on the MMO industry, that anything that comes after will just be compared to it. Like, when Titan comes out and everyone sits down to play it and says "well, this is a lot like WoW, but it's not WoW" or "well, this is like a casual-friendly vanilla WoW, but vanilla was not casual friendly, so this sucks".

 

What are your thoughts about this? Do you have concerns like me, or are you entirely confident that Titan will be as revolutionary as WoW was back then?



#2
papaz

papaz
  • Early Adopter
  • 676 posts
  • Location - Sweden
449
Exalted.GM.normal

Welcome to the forums Rambo (you really should get a Sylvester Stallone, Rambo -First blood avatar btw if you are going to call yourself Rambo :) ).

 

The MMO term is very broad. Many gamers are instantly thinking of WoW when talking about MMO's but truth to be told MMO is just like you say a Massively Multiplayer Online Game.

 

Doesn't have to be RPG, big cities, swords or weapons at all. As long as it's an online game with lot of players playing at the same time together it's an MMO of some sort.

 

The reason I'm saying this is because I don't think Titan will be something we compare with WoW because it will be so much different from WoW there will be nothing to compare. I doubt there will be any more simililarities between them more than both being online games with many players playing together so I'm not worried about the "Guy Ritchie- Snatch" syndrome at all.

 

Blizzard won't invent anything new, just as WoW wasn't a new invention. WoW took what was already out there in other MMO's and just did it A LOT better.

 

And THAT is what makes Blizzard so good and that is what I expect from Titan. Something that is already out there that Blizzard sees could be done better and that is what they will do.

 

Hearthstone is another good example of this. There has been online card games, and popular ones I might add, out there. But again Blizzard made a game that is so simple to get into, some way manages to capture the essence of "fun" in card games and then makes it accessible that even for gamers like me that have laughed at online card games now plays HS at least 2 hours per day.

 

In the end you might want to call it revolutionary that Blizzard manages to capture the essence of fun and packages in a way that is accessible to new markets and gamers and in that case, yes I believe Titan will be as revolutionary as WoW.

 

My only concerns are more restarts and more years of waiting :)



#3
Rambo

Rambo
  • Early Adopter
  • 26 posts
  • Location - Hungary
12
Friendly

Welcome to the forums Rambo (you really should get a Sylvester Stallone, Rambo -First blood avatar btw if you are going to call yourself Rambo :) ).

Done. :laughing:  Anyways, it's an old nickname and to be honest, I don't even know where it came from. Suddenly, when I went to high school everyone started to call me Rambo and since I couldn't do anything, I just accepted it. An then, I started to like it.  :smoke:

 

As for the second part, I really liked the RPG setup. Someone once said on another forum, that maybe Titan will be an MMOFPS, but I couldn't play an FPS however good it might be. And that's the point. Obviously, people who loved WoW also liked RPG to some extent, otherwise, they wouldn't have played it. And you can't give those guys something radical. They said, that they want to take over WoW to some extent with Titan, so as one fades away, the other can take its place. I know gamers quite well. Most of the time, they stick to one genre. They occasionally try something else out, of course, but they like one particular genre and it's a critical aspect of an MMO, because the developers want people to play it for years to come. I couldn't play an FPS for years. Damn, I even have problems playing one for more than an hour.

Sorry, maybe the FPS metaphor was not the best one, it might seem that I think that Titan will be an FPS, but I just wanted to state that they can't be radical with this one. People seek a completely new adventure with similar elements.



#4
mynsc

mynsc
  • Administrator
  • 1,684 posts
  • Location - Romania
  • BT - mynsc#2323
896
Exalted.GM.Inferno

While the game has gotten so much better as a game, it has become so much worse as an MMO.

 

I could frame this sentence. Well put. :D

 

And this is exactly why I don't think Titan will suffer the Guy Ritchie - Snatch (great movie btw) syndrome. IF it will be an MMO, it won't be hard at all to compare it favorably to the MMO WoW has become.


Useful Links: Rules --- Awards --- Titan FAQ --- Twitter --- Support TF


#5
Cadiver

Cadiver
  • Early Adopter
  • 2 posts
2
Neutral

It is realy hard to say what could go worng because things that might seems amazing to me might be horrible for you.



#6
Rambo

Rambo
  • Early Adopter
  • 26 posts
  • Location - Hungary
12
Friendly

It is realy hard to say what could go worng because things that might seems amazing to me might be horrible for you.

And that is why I opened my topic, for everyone to share their views.

Anyways, I tried to come up with examples that dealt with the concept of an MMO (social interaction) or the prestige of Blizzard itself. I thought that it was a common perception that the whole point of MMOs is social interaction. I liked the original WoW because it somewhat punished you for not grouping up with people. Common monsters hit for a lot, basically if you were alone and pulled two, you were going to have a bad time. If you pulled three, you were basically dead. Furthermore, in the first months, when there was no thottbot, you had to ask people how the hell they did this or that quest.

And this punishment for being antisocial is what I want from Titan. Hope they don't screw up.



#7
Orhai

Orhai
  • Early Adopter
  • 159 posts
26
Honored

Well basically: A LOT.

 

Just like at Diablo actually even better, wait a few months from now then look at Diablo.

 

 

If the bulk of the development team for Titan is not passionate about their work and do not have a real vision but at the same time have to make a game that brings money then what we will get is a simple or dumbed down game full of baffling chimera mix of amateur and good coding topped with face-palm irreversible design choices. That since the developers do not have passion nor vision will narrow their scope of acceptance of feedback to nothing but from fanboys that will only say positive things about the most broken of systems(these will also be the ones getting invited to tests as friends and their streams/videos promoted). But that is not the only possible shade over the modern developer's eyes now days developers often do not have the time or just are not very good gamers and so are completely out of touch with a lot of feedback they do get and are not capable of playing the games they develop at a high enough level to understand the consequences that erupt from the decisions. This leads to things like over/under nerfing and yet more dismissing of feedback. Every now and then some systems will be so broken that action if forced to happen and we see some half-assed bandaid fix and player base being blamed and sometimes even punished. These games may do well especially under names like Blizzard but in the end almost no one looks back and doesn't say what it could have been.

 

So yea it can go very bad by the time Titan is in beta I expect gamers will be wise enough to sound all the alarms before the game launches tho so even in this worse case scenario there will be some warning.



#8
Rambo

Rambo
  • Early Adopter
  • 26 posts
  • Location - Hungary
12
Friendly

So yea it can go very bad by the time Titan is in beta I expect gamers will be wise enough to sound all the alarms before the game launches tho so even in this worse case scenario there will be some warning.

I remember that the best MMOs I've ever played (vanilla WoW, most notably) were the ones that were actually... unbalanced. Let me explain:

In original WoW, things were not very polished, some of the zones were unfinished (like Silithus) and classes were not balanced. There were lots of frustrating things in the world, yet it felt like they were giving more freedom to play the game as we wanted to. Like in the early days, there were no battlegrounds, so PvP was not "controlled". You could PvP when and where you wanted (or forced) to, most notably Southsore. You could also "raid" Scholomance or Stratholme, because there were no 5-man limit on the instance. Back then, there was no maps for dungeons, so you could get lost. I remember a particular case, when, after a very bad wondering in BRD, I printed the map of the instance (one that I looked up on the internet) and on the next run, I gave directions to the party on ventrilo. I'm not really afraid that the game will be not too polished by release, in fact, I had more fun with "incomplete" MMOs, than perfect ones.



#9
Valkata

Valkata
  • Early Adopter
  • 799 posts
  • Location - EU
  • BT - Jasius#1148
284
Exalted.master

I hope Titan won't have this bullsh*t - "bring the player not the class", because now most spells / buffs / debuffs are shared across several classes / specs, and it pisses me off beyond insanity. I liked it much better in TBC (this is when I started playing).

I think Blizzard went too far with balancing classes, nothing is unique now.

Also, assuming Titan is going to be at least somewhat similar to WoW - I'd really hate it to be flooded with spells like WoW is.

I feel like there's just too much stuff going on right now, I mean Blink was nice, then Blizzard gave mages like what... 2-3 more escape mechanisms? But what's the point if every class gets another 2-3 spells like those as well, suddenly you're not killing each other in PvP, but measuring your reaction speed by pressing 700 escape mechanisms faster than the other player.

A bit of a rant I guess :) For all I know, Titan might not even be MMO anymore. It might not even BE at all.



#10
Rambo

Rambo
  • Early Adopter
  • 26 posts
  • Location - Hungary
12
Friendly

Exactly.

I liked the idea of fewer spells. They say that by adding new ones makes the game more complex, but in the end, you just open the browser, search for a DPS rotation and use that. It doesn't make it more complex than the time, when you had one spell, now you just have more buttons to mash. 

Although I loved the "flavor spells" in vanilla, like Summon Doomguard, that was utter bullsh*t, but it really gave your Warlock character a powerful demon to summon.



#11
Orhai

Orhai
  • Early Adopter
  • 159 posts
26
Honored

Do not compare vanilla launch to now if a game as unpolished as vanilla launched now no one would play it even mainstream is wising up to unfinished games(took 10 years and repeated games). The era of getting away with that kind of stuff is long gone due to mmorpg no longer being a new thing. But what some people mistake for polish is accessibility/convenience bloat that is something that vanilla wow did not have too much of like it does today. There is a  HUGE playerbase out there that expects and feels entitled to absolutely everything in MMORPG and they will swoop in and ruin games if devs are not steadfast with their own passion/vission. Then the same playerbase will months or sometimes years depending on the level of blind fanboyism quit those same games for the reasons brought on by the stuff they pushed for, welcome to mainstream where most people are complete idiots who want short term benefits with no sight on how that corrodes gameplay longterm.



#12
Rambo

Rambo
  • Early Adopter
  • 26 posts
  • Location - Hungary
12
Friendly

It's so bad, like people can't make up their minds. I think developers should realise that people who yell the loudest about changes will be the ones to quit the game, and in the process, they lose their dedicated playerbase as well. Wouldn't it be more sensible to hang on to dedicated players? I can't understand this.



#13
Orhai

Orhai
  • Early Adopter
  • 159 posts
26
Honored

It's so bad, like people can't make up their minds. I think developers should realise that people who yell the loudest about changes will be the ones to quit the game, and in the process, they lose their dedicated playerbase as well. Wouldn't it be more sensible to hang on to dedicated players? I can't understand this.

Well developers are starting to understand that having a solid vision/passion is important to building a game as well as remaining longterm objective(probably bigger reasons than technical for possible Titan reworks). I mean look at what Mark Jacobs is doing with CU and even Blizzard is trying to do with the new unannounced game/hearthstone or Carbine with Wildstar(or at least the talk). It will be a few years but game devs will find a balance like other things that have gone mainstream where they can mitigate mainstream direct influence and we will start getting some quality MMO that stand the test of time again I hope due to popularity being just a good quality product rather than a shiny mass marketed cash grab fit all product.



#14
Rambo

Rambo
  • Early Adopter
  • 26 posts
  • Location - Hungary
12
Friendly

Actually, there's a very relevant video here, you might know it: 

This sums up the whole problem with appealing to the majority. It just doesn't work well in the long run.



#15
Orhai

Orhai
  • Early Adopter
  • 159 posts
26
Honored

Actually, there's a very relevant video here, you might know it: 

This sums up the whole problem with appealing to the majority. It just doesn't work well in the long run.

lol this is my point people spout about this in 2011 well every high end wow raider I knew and respected quit back in late BC years earlier for these same reasons. High tier wow guilds peaked(not counting 10 mans) well before the population peaked because these players saw this Hamsters rock, Squirrels suck! coming. Blizzard tried to stem the bleeding with silly things like mirroring and they continue this philosophy to this day look at legendary 20 man difficulty. Don't forget the turning point people point out the black temple post where blizzard is like: "If raid content is tuned correctly, it will die relatively fast (UNLESS it requires some sort of progression check -- Onyxia Cloak, resist check). Even straight up gear checks are very dicey. More often than not that lead's to excessive raid stacking rather than a true gearing up." or something stupid like that this was the death of competitive PvE how it was. Or they could have just nerfed raid stacking? WOW WHO WOULD HAVE THOUGHT and what is wrong with onyxia cloak or ressist gear farms? Those were some of the most fun encounters and ways of gating along with attunements IMO. Instead of nerfing class stacking and keeping classes unique they decide to do this silly bring the player not the class level of stupidity and irony is just ridiculous these are the best examples of developers not being capable of playing on a high enough level to understand what they are giving up for these bandaid half assed fixes.